Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

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Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

August Nagro
The Java 9 Release Notes [1] include:

"Java Deployment Technologies are deprecated and will be removed in a
future release. Java Applet and WebStart functionality, including the
Applet API, The Java plug-in, the Java Applet Viewer, JNLP and Java Web
Start including the javaws tool are all deprecated in JDK 9 and will be
removed in a future release."

The bell has been ringing for Applets for some time, but I am surprised by
the inclusion of Java WebStart / JNLP. The technology is the recommended
migration path from applets [2], and provides some really enabling features
like os-agnostics shortcuts, icons, and the ability to auto-update in the
background.

The `appletlauncher` executable has a clear deprecation warning in Java 9,
but `javaws` has no such notice, leading me to believe there may be an
error. In any case, Java Web Start is a mature, useful technology that has
undoubtedly received large investment over the years. It's sudden removal
would be quite disappointing.

Regards,

August Nagro

[1]:
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/9-deprecated-features-3745636.html
[2]: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/289
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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

Donald Smith-8
The release notes are accurate.

As we noted early in September [1]:

> As client application development continues to shift from the old “plugin” world to modern deployment, the need for a standalone Java Runtime Environment (JRE) that is installed centrally, separately from Java applications has diminished.  Using the ‘jlink’ tool introduced with JDK 9 will make it even easier for application developers to package and deploy dedicated runtimes rather than relying on a pre-installed system JRE.  Oracle will begin transitioning from the standalone architecture later next year in what will be a multi-year effort.


 - Don

[1] - https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/faster-and-easier-use-and-redistribution-of-java-se


> On Nov 3, 2017, at 4:30 PM, August Nagro <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The Java 9 Release Notes [1] include:
>
> "Java Deployment Technologies are deprecated and will be removed in a
> future release. Java Applet and WebStart functionality, including the
> Applet API, The Java plug-in, the Java Applet Viewer, JNLP and Java Web
> Start including the javaws tool are all deprecated in JDK 9 and will be
> removed in a future release."
>
> The bell has been ringing for Applets for some time, but I am surprised by
> the inclusion of Java WebStart / JNLP. The technology is the recommended
> migration path from applets [2], and provides some really enabling features
> like os-agnostics shortcuts, icons, and the ability to auto-update in the
> background.
>
> The `appletlauncher` executable has a clear deprecation warning in Java 9,
> but `javaws` has no such notice, leading me to believe there may be an
> error. In any case, Java Web Start is a mature, useful technology that has
> undoubtedly received large investment over the years. It's sudden removal
> would be quite disappointing.
>
> Regards,
>
> August Nagro
>
> [1]:
> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/9-deprecated-features-3745636.html
> [2]: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/289
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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

Dr. Michael Paus-2
This is no doubt a step in the right direction but I wonder why then the
javapackager is broken since the release of Java 9 and nobody seems to care
although this problem has been known for more than half a year now.
See https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8179033



Am 05.11.17 um 21:40 schrieb Donald smith:

> The release notes are accurate.
>
> As we noted early in September [1]:
>
>> As client application development continues to shift from the old “plugin” world to modern deployment, the need for a standalone Java Runtime Environment (JRE) that is installed centrally, separately from Java applications has diminished.  Using the ‘jlink’ tool introduced with JDK 9 will make it even easier for application developers to package and deploy dedicated runtimes rather than relying on a pre-installed system JRE.  Oracle will begin transitioning from the standalone architecture later next year in what will be a multi-year effort.
>
>   - Don
>
> [1] - https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/faster-and-easier-use-and-redistribution-of-java-se
>
>
>> On Nov 3, 2017, at 4:30 PM, August Nagro <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> The Java 9 Release Notes [1] include:
>>
>> "Java Deployment Technologies are deprecated and will be removed in a
>> future release. Java Applet and WebStart functionality, including the
>> Applet API, The Java plug-in, the Java Applet Viewer, JNLP and Java Web
>> Start including the javaws tool are all deprecated in JDK 9 and will be
>> removed in a future release."
>>
>> The bell has been ringing for Applets for some time, but I am surprised by
>> the inclusion of Java WebStart / JNLP. The technology is the recommended
>> migration path from applets [2], and provides some really enabling features
>> like os-agnostics shortcuts, icons, and the ability to auto-update in the
>> background.
>>
>> The `appletlauncher` executable has a clear deprecation warning in Java 9,
>> but `javaws` has no such notice, leading me to believe there may be an
>> error. In any case, Java Web Start is a mature, useful technology that has
>> undoubtedly received large investment over the years. It's sudden removal
>> would be quite disappointing.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> August Nagro
>>
>> [1]:
>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/9-deprecated-features-3745636.html
>> [2]: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/289


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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

Alan Bateman
On 05/11/2017 21:27, Michael Paus wrote:
> This is no doubt a step in the right direction but I wonder why then the
> javapackager is broken since the release of Java 9 and nobody seems to
> care
> although this problem has been known for more than half a year now.
> See https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8179033
The openjfx-dev list is the place to bring patches that for that issue.
I see someone started a thread about this issue and a possible fix last
month.

-Alan
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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

Michael Nascimento
In reply to this post by Donald Smith-8
Hi Donald,

I've heard this argument before and it seems Oracle is not aware of
why enterprises use Java WebStart. It has *nothing* to do with a
central JRE, but actually with distributing and upgrading applications
automatically without using installers and requiring admin privileges,
especially in Windows environments. That's at least what I see here in
Brazil in several companies I've consulted for and what people tell me
after desktop-related talks.

Saying this could be replaced with a jlink generated image or an
installer is really ignoring how this is really dealt with by the Java
community and even why Java was a good pick for those desktop
applications - a WORA that doesn't require an installer with admin
rights and auto-upgrade with a differential download protocol is the
key factor for choosing JWS. And I see no replacement being provided
by the JDK or even in the roadmap.

Regards,
Michael<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
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On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Donald smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The release notes are accurate.
>
> As we noted early in September [1]:
>
>> As client application development continues to shift from the old “plugin” world to modern deployment, the need for a standalone Java Runtime Environment (JRE) that is installed centrally, separately from Java applications has diminished.  Using the ‘jlink’ tool introduced with JDK 9 will make it even easier for application developers to package and deploy dedicated runtimes rather than relying on a pre-installed system JRE.  Oracle will begin transitioning from the standalone architecture later next year in what will be a multi-year effort.
>
>
>  - Don
>
> [1] - https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/faster-and-easier-use-and-redistribution-of-java-se
>
>
>> On Nov 3, 2017, at 4:30 PM, August Nagro <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> The Java 9 Release Notes [1] include:
>>
>> "Java Deployment Technologies are deprecated and will be removed in a
>> future release. Java Applet and WebStart functionality, including the
>> Applet API, The Java plug-in, the Java Applet Viewer, JNLP and Java Web
>> Start including the javaws tool are all deprecated in JDK 9 and will be
>> removed in a future release."
>>
>> The bell has been ringing for Applets for some time, but I am surprised by
>> the inclusion of Java WebStart / JNLP. The technology is the recommended
>> migration path from applets [2], and provides some really enabling features
>> like os-agnostics shortcuts, icons, and the ability to auto-update in the
>> background.
>>
>> The `appletlauncher` executable has a clear deprecation warning in Java 9,
>> but `javaws` has no such notice, leading me to believe there may be an
>> error. In any case, Java Web Start is a mature, useful technology that has
>> undoubtedly received large investment over the years. It's sudden removal
>> would be quite disappointing.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> August Nagro
>>
>> [1]:
>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/9-deprecated-features-3745636.html
>> [2]: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/289
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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

Donald Smith-8
Hi Michael,

No doubt this was true, but the OSes have shifted hard and fast away
from this model.  The "app store" model is now it.  macOS has been
ratcheting this down hard for several years now.  MSFT -- even in the
enterprise market -- has signaled this direction as well.  For sure we
need to find options to support the legacy, but the future here is limited.

  - Don

On 06/11/2017 5:31 AM, Michael Nascimento wrote:

> Hi Donald,
>
> I've heard this argument before and it seems Oracle is not aware of
> why enterprises use Java WebStart. It has *nothing* to do with a
> central JRE, but actually with distributing and upgrading applications
> automatically without using installers and requiring admin privileges,
> especially in Windows environments. That's at least what I see here in
> Brazil in several companies I've consulted for and what people tell me
> after desktop-related talks.
>
> Saying this could be replaced with a jlink generated image or an
> installer is really ignoring how this is really dealt with by the Java
> community and even why Java was a good pick for those desktop
> applications - a WORA that doesn't require an installer with admin
> rights and auto-upgrade with a differential download protocol is the
> key factor for choosing JWS. And I see no replacement being provided
> by the JDK or even in the roadmap.
>
> Regards,
> Michael<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
> <table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
> <tr>
>          <td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a
> href="http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail"
> target="_blank"><img
> src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png"
> alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"
> /></a></td>
> <td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e;
> font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
> line-height: 18px;">Virus-free. <a
> href="http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail"
> target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avg.com</a>
> </td>
> </tr>
> </table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
> height="1"></a></div>
>
> On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Donald smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The release notes are accurate.
>>
>> As we noted early in September [1]:
>>
>>> As client application development continues to shift from the old “plugin” world to modern deployment, the need for a standalone Java Runtime Environment (JRE) that is installed centrally, separately from Java applications has diminished.  Using the ‘jlink’ tool introduced with JDK 9 will make it even easier for application developers to package and deploy dedicated runtimes rather than relying on a pre-installed system JRE.  Oracle will begin transitioning from the standalone architecture later next year in what will be a multi-year effort.
>>
>>   - Don
>>
>> [1] - https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/faster-and-easier-use-and-redistribution-of-java-se
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 3, 2017, at 4:30 PM, August Nagro <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> The Java 9 Release Notes [1] include:
>>>
>>> "Java Deployment Technologies are deprecated and will be removed in a
>>> future release. Java Applet and WebStart functionality, including the
>>> Applet API, The Java plug-in, the Java Applet Viewer, JNLP and Java Web
>>> Start including the javaws tool are all deprecated in JDK 9 and will be
>>> removed in a future release."
>>>
>>> The bell has been ringing for Applets for some time, but I am surprised by
>>> the inclusion of Java WebStart / JNLP. The technology is the recommended
>>> migration path from applets [2], and provides some really enabling features
>>> like os-agnostics shortcuts, icons, and the ability to auto-update in the
>>> background.
>>>
>>> The `appletlauncher` executable has a clear deprecation warning in Java 9,
>>> but `javaws` has no such notice, leading me to believe there may be an
>>> error. In any case, Java Web Start is a mature, useful technology that has
>>> undoubtedly received large investment over the years. It's sudden removal
>>> would be quite disappointing.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> August Nagro
>>>
>>> [1]:
>>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/9-deprecated-features-3745636.html
>>> [2]: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/289

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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

Michael Nascimento
Hi Donald,

While I agree the "mental model" would be app stores, there is no
direct Java support for such a thing and no "app store" for Linux in
general, to make matters worse. Also nobody wants to distribute an
internal application through a public app store. So this is not really
a solution for most applications I see deployed out there using JWS.

Regards,
Michael

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Donald Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Michael,
>
> No doubt this was true, but the OSes have shifted hard and fast away from
> this model.  The "app store" model is now it.  macOS has been ratcheting
> this down hard for several years now.  MSFT -- even in the enterprise market
> -- has signaled this direction as well.  For sure we need to find options to
> support the legacy, but the future here is limited.
>
>  - Don
>
>
> On 06/11/2017 5:31 AM, Michael Nascimento wrote:
>>
>> Hi Donald,
>>
>> I've heard this argument before and it seems Oracle is not aware of
>> why enterprises use Java WebStart. It has *nothing* to do with a
>> central JRE, but actually with distributing and upgrading applications
>> automatically without using installers and requiring admin privileges,
>> especially in Windows environments. That's at least what I see here in
>> Brazil in several companies I've consulted for and what people tell me
>> after desktop-related talks.
>>
>> Saying this could be replaced with a jlink generated image or an
>> installer is really ignoring how this is really dealt with by the Java
>> community and even why Java was a good pick for those desktop
>> applications - a WORA that doesn't require an installer with admin
>> rights and auto-upgrade with a differential download protocol is the
>> key factor for choosing JWS. And I see no replacement being provided
>> by the JDK or even in the roadmap.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Michael<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
>> <table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
>>         <tr>
>>          <td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a
>>
>> href="http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail"
>> target="_blank"><img
>>
>> src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png"
>> alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"
>> /></a></td>
>>                 <td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color:
>> #41424e;
>> font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
>> line-height: 18px;">Virus-free. <a
>>
>> href="http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail"
>> target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avg.com</a>
>>                 </td>
>>         </tr>
>> </table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
>> height="1"></a></div>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Donald smith <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> The release notes are accurate.
>>>
>>> As we noted early in September [1]:
>>>
>>>> As client application development continues to shift from the old
>>>> “plugin” world to modern deployment, the need for a standalone Java Runtime
>>>> Environment (JRE) that is installed centrally, separately from Java
>>>> applications has diminished.  Using the ‘jlink’ tool introduced with JDK 9
>>>> will make it even easier for application developers to package and deploy
>>>> dedicated runtimes rather than relying on a pre-installed system JRE.
>>>> Oracle will begin transitioning from the standalone architecture later next
>>>> year in what will be a multi-year effort.
>>>
>>>
>>>   - Don
>>>
>>> [1] -
>>> https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/faster-and-easier-use-and-redistribution-of-java-se
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Nov 3, 2017, at 4:30 PM, August Nagro <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The Java 9 Release Notes [1] include:
>>>>
>>>> "Java Deployment Technologies are deprecated and will be removed in a
>>>> future release. Java Applet and WebStart functionality, including the
>>>> Applet API, The Java plug-in, the Java Applet Viewer, JNLP and Java Web
>>>> Start including the javaws tool are all deprecated in JDK 9 and will be
>>>> removed in a future release."
>>>>
>>>> The bell has been ringing for Applets for some time, but I am surprised
>>>> by
>>>> the inclusion of Java WebStart / JNLP. The technology is the recommended
>>>> migration path from applets [2], and provides some really enabling
>>>> features
>>>> like os-agnostics shortcuts, icons, and the ability to auto-update in
>>>> the
>>>> background.
>>>>
>>>> The `appletlauncher` executable has a clear deprecation warning in Java
>>>> 9,
>>>> but `javaws` has no such notice, leading me to believe there may be an
>>>> error. In any case, Java Web Start is a mature, useful technology that
>>>> has
>>>> undoubtedly received large investment over the years. It's sudden
>>>> removal
>>>> would be quite disappointing.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> August Nagro
>>>>
>>>> [1]:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/9-deprecated-features-3745636.html
>>>> [2]: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/289
>
>
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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

Mario Torre-6
On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 3:31 PM, Michael Nascimento <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Donald,
>
> While I agree the "mental model" would be app stores, there is no
> direct Java support for such a thing and no "app store" for Linux in
> general, to make matters worse. Also nobody wants to distribute an
> internal application through a public app store. So this is not really
> a solution for most applications I see deployed out there using JWS.

Each distributions have their own app store already, in fact they had
before App Store was even coined as a word. If you target one specific
OS in your company is pretty easy to create, for example, an rpm and
have a global configured repository that can be managed like any other
across your organisation, and doesn't have to be accessible
externally, it's very well suited for secure deployments of software.

Also, while I didn't follow the whole discussion about its proposal, I
believe the future jpackager API will make it easier to create
distribution specific packages for a variety of targets. Flatpacks and
similar methods are also gaining leverage. I think we should have
separated deployment strategies from the java platform many years ago,
it's good we're doing that now at last.

Cheers,
Mario
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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

Michael Nascimento
On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Mario Torre <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Each distributions have their own app store already, in fact they had
> before App Store was even coined as a word. If you target one specific
> OS in your company is pretty easy to create, for example, an rpm and
> have a global configured repository that can be managed like any other
> across your organisation, and doesn't have to be accessible
> externally, it's very well suited for secure deployments of software.

Except that for many enterprises, including a customer I worked for 7
years, you had to support pretty much any OS. Only 150 out of 300
"core" users (that had standard hardware/OS, the rest was BYOL over
the VPN.

> Also, while I didn't follow the whole discussion about its proposal, I
> believe the future jpackager API will make it easier to create
> distribution specific packages for a variety of targets. Flatpacks and
> similar methods are also gaining leverage. I think we should have
> separated deployment strategies from the java platform many years ago,
> it's good we're doing that now at last.

Updating with a differential download is a pretty neat feature of JWS.
We had users at the Amazon forest area (yeah, this is enterprise
software, they were independent sales representatives) and having a 20
MB application requiring just a 30-400kb upgrade at most was (and
still is) a crucial reason for embracing JWS.

Regards,
Michael <div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

Tim Anderson
In reply to this post by Donald Smith-8
WebStart isn't just used for distributing and updating packages. It is
also used for providing a link between web application and desktop clients.

E.g., Weasis <https://dcm4che.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/WEA/overview>,
is a desktop application that allows users to view DICOM images hosted
in DCM4CHEE.
A user clicks on an image link and WebStart is used to launch Weasis on
the desktop to view and manipulate the image.

In our case,  our web application hosts patient documents in OpenOffice
and Word format. These can be edited via WebDAV.
Users can click an edit button within the app which triggers a WebStart
app to launch OpenOffice to edit a document.

The "app store" model doesn't help in either of the situations.

It would be disappointing if WebStart was deprecated, as it would make
this kind of functionality harder to support.
In particular, it would require users to perform additional steps to
install the desktop clients.
Presumably the desktop clients would also need to set up their own file
associations to trigger launching.

-Tim

On 7/11/2017 1:26 AM, Donald Smith wrote:

> Hi Michael,
>
> No doubt this was true, but the OSes have shifted hard and fast away
> from this model.  The "app store" model is now it.  macOS has been
> ratcheting this down hard for several years now.  MSFT -- even in the
> enterprise market -- has signaled this direction as well.  For sure we
> need to find options to support the legacy, but the future here is
> limited.
>
>  - Don
>
> On 06/11/2017 5:31 AM, Michael Nascimento wrote:
>> Hi Donald,
>>
>> I've heard this argument before and it seems Oracle is not aware of
>> why enterprises use Java WebStart. It has *nothing* to do with a
>> central JRE, but actually with distributing and upgrading applications
>> automatically without using installers and requiring admin privileges,
>> especially in Windows environments. That's at least what I see here in
>> Brazil in several companies I've consulted for and what people tell me
>> after desktop-related talks.
>>
>> Saying this could be replaced with a jlink generated image or an
>> installer is really ignoring how this is really dealt with by the Java
>> community and even why Java was a good pick for those desktop
>> applications - a WORA that doesn't require an installer with admin
>> rights and auto-upgrade with a differential download protocol is the
>> key factor for choosing JWS. And I see no replacement being provided
>> by the JDK or even in the roadmap.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Michael<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
>> <table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
>>     <tr>
>>          <td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a
>> href="http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail"
>>
>> target="_blank"><img
>> src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png"
>>
>> alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"
>> /></a></td>
>>         <td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e;
>> font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
>> line-height: 18px;">Virus-free. <a
>> href="http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail"
>>
>> target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avg.com</a>
>>         </td>
>>     </tr>
>> </table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
>> height="1"></a></div>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Donald smith
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> The release notes are accurate.
>>>
>>> As we noted early in September [1]:
>>>
>>>> As client application development continues to shift from the old
>>>> “plugin” world to modern deployment, the need for a standalone Java
>>>> Runtime Environment (JRE) that is installed centrally, separately
>>>> from Java applications has diminished.  Using the ‘jlink’ tool
>>>> introduced with JDK 9 will make it even easier for application
>>>> developers to package and deploy dedicated runtimes rather than
>>>> relying on a pre-installed system JRE. Oracle will begin
>>>> transitioning from the standalone architecture later next year in
>>>> what will be a multi-year effort.
>>>
>>>   - Don
>>>
>>> [1] -
>>> https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/faster-and-easier-use-and-redistribution-of-java-se
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Nov 3, 2017, at 4:30 PM, August Nagro <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The Java 9 Release Notes [1] include:
>>>>
>>>> "Java Deployment Technologies are deprecated and will be removed in a
>>>> future release. Java Applet and WebStart functionality, including the
>>>> Applet API, The Java plug-in, the Java Applet Viewer, JNLP and Java
>>>> Web
>>>> Start including the javaws tool are all deprecated in JDK 9 and
>>>> will be
>>>> removed in a future release."
>>>>
>>>> The bell has been ringing for Applets for some time, but I am
>>>> surprised by
>>>> the inclusion of Java WebStart / JNLP. The technology is the
>>>> recommended
>>>> migration path from applets [2], and provides some really enabling
>>>> features
>>>> like os-agnostics shortcuts, icons, and the ability to auto-update
>>>> in the
>>>> background.
>>>>
>>>> The `appletlauncher` executable has a clear deprecation warning in
>>>> Java 9,
>>>> but `javaws` has no such notice, leading me to believe there may be an
>>>> error. In any case, Java Web Start is a mature, useful technology
>>>> that has
>>>> undoubtedly received large investment over the years. It's sudden
>>>> removal
>>>> would be quite disappointing.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> August Nagro
>>>>
>>>> [1]:
>>>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/9-deprecated-features-3745636.html 
>>>>
>>>> [2]: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/289
>

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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

August Nagro
In reply to this post by Michael Nascimento
> If you target one specific OS in your company

Even if this was always the case, why limit yourself? Java's motto is
'Write Once, Run Anywhere', after all.

> I think we should have separated deployment strategies from the java
platform

If we really want separated deployment strategies we should deprecate the
JAR format as well, since WebStart is in many ways its extension

Consider the difficulties of distributing client applications as standalone
executables:

   - Need to build N times, and have the hardware to do so.
   - Have to codesign and deploy each executable separately.
   - Updating the application means more engineering.
   - How does one launch with custom context from a browser?
   - Custom loading screens?
   - Shortcut installations?

WebStart and JNLP solve all these problems in ~30 lines of xml.

While the companies behind MineCraft and Intellij IDEA can afford the extra
effort of OS-specific deployments, most individuals (and even medium sized
teams) don't have the resources. For example, my high school calculus
teacher wrote a beautiful integration-modeling Applet with Swing, which was
eventually migrated to WebStart. I seriously doubt the tool would exist if
it required OS-specific bundling. Instead the class would be sharing
unversioned JAR files.

This doesn't even take into account the valid use cases others have shared.
And WebStart seems to be a popular deployment mechanism, considering it's
mentioned on /r/Java every week.

There are of course drawbacks to WebStart, such as:

   - Scattered documentation
   - Some platform-specific bugs
      - Mac shortcuts not integrated with Spotlight search or Applications
      Folder
      - Permissions dialogue is pretty ugly on Mac
   - Only really works on Oracle distribution
   - Startup time can be slow
   - Requires full JRE Installed
   - Security model is a pain
      - Why is code signing required even for applications that use even
      the most sandboxed setting?
   - Big maintenance burden on Oracle

But with all the negatives considered, WebStart still has too much
potential to deprecate and throw away. If the technology was brought to
OpenJDK (like JMC and the other proprietary features) I suspect people will
contribute.

- August

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 9:43 AM Michael Nascimento <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Mario Torre <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Each distributions have their own app store already, in fact they had
> > before App Store was even coined as a word. If you target one specific
> > OS in your company is pretty easy to create, for example, an rpm and
> > have a global configured repository that can be managed like any other
> > across your organisation, and doesn't have to be accessible
> > externally, it's very well suited for secure deployments of software.
>
> Except that for many enterprises, including a customer I worked for 7
> years, you had to support pretty much any OS. Only 150 out of 300
> "core" users (that had standard hardware/OS, the rest was BYOL over
> the VPN.
>
> > Also, while I didn't follow the whole discussion about its proposal, I
> > believe the future jpackager API will make it easier to create
> > distribution specific packages for a variety of targets. Flatpacks and
> > similar methods are also gaining leverage. I think we should have
> > separated deployment strategies from the java platform many years ago,
> > it's good we're doing that now at last.
>
> Updating with a differential download is a pretty neat feature of JWS.
> We had users at the Amazon forest area (yeah, this is enterprise
> software, they were independent sales representatives) and having a 20
> MB application requiring just a 30-400kb upgrade at most was (and
> still is) a crucial reason for embracing JWS.
>
> Regards,
> Michael <div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
> <table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
>         <tr>
>         <td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a
> href="
> http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> "
> target="_blank"><img
> src="
> https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png"
> alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"
> /></a></td>
>                 <td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e;
> font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
> line-height: 18px;">Virus-free. <a
> href="
> http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail
> "
> target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avg.com</a>
>                 </td>
>         </tr>
> </table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
> height="1"></a></div>
>
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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

Robert Zenz
In reply to this post by Mario Torre-6
apt/yum/zypper/etc. are very, very good and can be used as alternative, but it
would require that a command is run as root on *every* target machine. So this
either must be automated (like remote calls over ssh), or the user is given root
rights and the trust to do this (who would want that?). That seems rather
tedious compared to the WebStart/JNLP mechanism (especially for rather fast
moving applications), especially as such a solution would be bound to a specific
OS/distribution.


On 06.11.2017 16:00, Mario Torre wrote:

> Each distributions have their own app store already, in fact they had
> before App Store was even coined as a word. If you target one specific
> OS in your company is pretty easy to create, for example, an rpm and
> have a global configured repository that can be managed like any other
> across your organisation, and doesn't have to be accessible
> externally, it's very well suited for secure deployments of software.
>
> Also, while I didn't follow the whole discussion about its proposal, I
> believe the future jpackager API will make it easier to create
> distribution specific packages for a variety of targets. Flatpacks and
> similar methods are also gaining leverage. I think we should have
> separated deployment strategies from the java platform many years ago,
> it's good we're doing that now at last.
>
> Cheers,
> Mario
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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

Robert Zenz
In reply to this post by Donald Smith-8
I have a hard time parsing the information about jlink, so please excuse if that
is a well answered question. From what I can gather, jlink does create native
launchers (which means that the application and the JRE are packaged and can be
"simply" started on the target machine without a prior installed JRE), is that
correct? If yes, I'm not seeing an option in the jlink documentation to
"cross-compile" for another OS, did I miss something there?


On 05.11.2017 21:40, Donald smith wrote:

> The release notes are accurate.
>
> As we noted early in September [1]:
>
>> As client application development continues to shift from the old “plugin” world to modern deployment, the need for a standalone Java Runtime Environment (JRE) that is installed centrally, separately from Java applications has diminished.  Using the ‘jlink’ tool introduced with JDK 9 will make it even easier for application developers to package and deploy dedicated runtimes rather than relying on a pre-installed system JRE.  Oracle will begin transitioning from the standalone architecture later next year in what will be a multi-year effort.
>
>
>  - Don
>
> [1] - https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/faster-and-easier-use-and-redistribution-of-java-se
>
>
>> On Nov 3, 2017, at 4:30 PM, August Nagro <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> The Java 9 Release Notes [1] include:
>>
>> "Java Deployment Technologies are deprecated and will be removed in a
>> future release. Java Applet and WebStart functionality, including the
>> Applet API, The Java plug-in, the Java Applet Viewer, JNLP and Java Web
>> Start including the javaws tool are all deprecated in JDK 9 and will be
>> removed in a future release."
>>
>> The bell has been ringing for Applets for some time, but I am surprised by
>> the inclusion of Java WebStart / JNLP. The technology is the recommended
>> migration path from applets [2], and provides some really enabling features
>> like os-agnostics shortcuts, icons, and the ability to auto-update in the
>> background.
>>
>> The `appletlauncher` executable has a clear deprecation warning in Java 9,
>> but `javaws` has no such notice, leading me to believe there may be an
>> error. In any case, Java Web Start is a mature, useful technology that has
>> undoubtedly received large investment over the years. It's sudden removal
>> would be quite disappointing.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> August Nagro
>>
>> [1]:
>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/9-deprecated-features-3745636.html
>> [2]: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/289
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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

dalibor topic-2


On 07.11.2017 10:25, Robert Zenz wrote:
> If yes, I'm not seeing an option in the jlink documentation to
> "cross-compile" for another OS, did I miss something there?

The jlink tool creates platform specific runtime images, i.e. it doesn't
cross-compile them.

cheers,
dalibor topic

--
<http://www.oracle.com> Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
Phone: +494089091214 <tel:+494089091214> | Mobile: +491737185961
<tel:+491737185961>

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Jan Schultheiss, Val Maher

<http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to developing
practices and products that help protect the environment
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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

Robert Zenz
So, if you want to distribute such an image to Microsoft Windows, macOS and
Linux clients you need all three OSs set up to create images for them?


On 07.11.2017 10:38, dalibor topic wrote:

>
>
> On 07.11.2017 10:25, Robert Zenz wrote:
>> If yes, I'm not seeing an option in the jlink documentation to
>> "cross-compile" for another OS, did I miss something there?
>
> The jlink tool creates platform specific runtime images, i.e. it doesn't
> cross-compile them.
>
> cheers,
> dalibor topic
>
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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

Alan Bateman
On 07/11/2017 09:48, Robert Zenz wrote:
> So, if you want to distribute such an image to Microsoft Windows, macOS and
> Linux clients you need all three OSs set up to create images for them?
>
jlink does supports cross targeting, meaning you can run jlink on say
macOS and create run-time for say windows-x64. There is limited testing
of the combinations so please report any issues that you run into.

One other thing is that the jlink plugins that do code generation at
link time do not consistently check the version of the target platform.
This is something that needs to be fixed. In the mean time, you need to
make sure that the the packaged modules are the same version as jlink,
e.g. you can't run jlink on a JDK 10 build to create a 9.0.1 run-time
image and vice versa.

-Alan.
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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

Fabrizio Giudici
In reply to this post by Donald Smith-8
On Mon, 06 Nov 2017 15:26:46 +0100, Donald Smith <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

> Hi Michael,
>
> No doubt this was true, but the OSes have shifted hard and fast away  
> from this model.  The "app store" model is now it.  macOS has been  
> ratcheting this down hard for several years now.  MSFT -- even in the  
> enterprise market -- has signaled this direction as well.  For sure we  
> need to find options to support the legacy, but the future here is  
> limited.

The "app store" does make sense with a certain kind of users. But in some  
industrial environments I consult for, the "app store" model has no  
meaning. As Michael said, they use JNLP as a way to install and update  
some specific apps on clients. They have been hardly bothered by the  
escalation of security patches at the times of JDK 1.7.0, but in the end  
they managed it. When they will learn that all the work done to get the  
thing working will have to be thrown away, they'll get pretty angry.


--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s.
"We make Java work. Everywhere."
http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - [hidden email]
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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

dalibor topic-2
In reply to this post by Robert Zenz
Well, given that OpenJDK 9 downloads are currently only available for
Linux x86, the question is a bit moot. [0]

While the Oracle JDK 9 download covers more platforms [1], you'd need to
find a way to run/extract the various target platform installation
packages on source platforms first, before you can start thinking about
cross-linking.

I suspect that's even less fun than it sounds in comparison to just
using jlink natively.

cheers,
dalibor topic

[0] http://jdk.java.net/9/
[1]
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jdk9-downloads-3848520.html

On 07.11.2017 10:48, Robert Zenz wrote:

> So, if you want to distribute such an image to Microsoft Windows, macOS and
> Linux clients you need all three OSs set up to create images for them?
>
>
> On 07.11.2017 10:38, dalibor topic wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 07.11.2017 10:25, Robert Zenz wrote:
>>> If yes, I'm not seeing an option in the jlink documentation to
>>> "cross-compile" for another OS, did I miss something there?
>>
>> The jlink tool creates platform specific runtime images, i.e. it doesn't
>> cross-compile them.
>>
>> cheers,
>> dalibor topic

--
<http://www.oracle.com> Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
Phone: +494089091214 <tel:+494089091214> | Mobile: +491737185961
<tel:+491737185961>

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Jan Schultheiss, Val Maher

<http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to developing
practices and products that help protect the environment
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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

Robert Zenz
In reply to this post by Alan Bateman
Ah, I see. This is done implicitly by specifying a different modulepath. To be
exact, specifying the path to the modules of the target system. Thank you.

I was looking for some information on it in the jlink documentation at
https://docs.oracle.com/javase/9/tools/jlink.htm but couldn't find anything
about it in there, so that is why I was confused.


On 07.11.2017 11:09, Alan Bateman wrote:

> On 07/11/2017 09:48, Robert Zenz wrote:
>> So, if you want to distribute such an image to Microsoft Windows, macOS and
>> Linux clients you need all three OSs set up to create images for them?
>>
> jlink does supports cross targeting, meaning you can run jlink on say macOS and
> create run-time for say windows-x64. There is limited testing of the
> combinations so please report any issues that you run into.
>
> One other thing is that the jlink plugins that do code generation at link time
> do not consistently check the version of the target platform. This is something
> that needs to be fixed. In the mean time, you need to make sure that the the
> packaged modules are the same version as jlink, e.g. you can't run jlink on a
> JDK 10 build to create a 9.0.1 run-time image and vice versa.
>
> -Alan.
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Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated?

Fernando Cassia-2
In reply to this post by Robert Zenz
On 11/7/17, Robert Zenz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> apt/yum/zypper/etc. are very, very good and can be used as alternative, but
> it
> would require that a command is run as root on *every* target machine. So
> this
> either must be automated (like remote calls over ssh), or the user is given
> root
> rights and the trust to do this (who would want that?). That seems rather
> tedious compared to the WebStart/JNLP mechanism (especially for rather fast
> moving applications), especially as such a solution would be bound to a
> specific
> OS/distribution.

+1 for getting Java Web Start supported if not officially then as part
of an OpenJDK subproject with community involvement. Call it OpenJDK
browser launch or whatver you want.

I know a few apps that use JWS and I use often. muCommander being one of them.
The ability to just point at the site and launch the latest version
without having to mind about updating a locally stored copy is one of
the strengths of the JWS solution that no other approach can match.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MuCommander

see also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Web_Start#Notable_applications

FC
12